To All The Dumbasses who don't think we can win...

[Alex]

Gosh Viper, you just opened up a whole new can of worms, but an on topic can of worms.

The ONLY way Shapiro can learn from his Ricky Gee Whiz signing is to take a page out of the John Hart book and bring in a player who can excite the fans and make them believe this team can win...AND have it not be a false belief, nor a super-expensive one either.

Ricky G represents a false belief in the present. To further cut payroll and NOT try and improve will be the mark of failure for Mr. Shapiro.

Check out Ricky G's projected numbers for the year...they are HORRENDOUS.

Shapiro does keep making these minor league acquistions Josh Bard, Macgruder, that are in fact helping us.

Ricky G is not even an average player. Speed or Power, he has neither. That means you can't make him a cornerstone of a contending team.

Ricky G is a valuable utility man, but he must be hidden in the back of the line-up to prevent his GIDP's and lack of baserunning speed.

His contract may lead to the disassembly of this team when they still had a chance to make noise in the playoffs.

Mark Wohlers was signed because Shapiro trusted the New York guy he signed this off season to be a part of his team.

It's why we almost ended up with the guy who stole Jeter's glove. Live and Learn.

[srg]

TR, i gave you several E-mail responses from Pluto-Ingraham and Hoynes on Fanhome that proved Shapiro made that Bradley deal but of course you will not accept this so why bother?

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hawaii007:
Go and ask Hart, I believe Hart did say that to reporters that the Bradley-Day deal was Shapiros. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is urban legend. Everyone keeps repeating that, well, Hart said so. But no one ever has a link that confirms this fantasy. Show me a link or a story reference and I'll consider it. Until then it's filed next to BS.

[Hawaii007]

I don't have the link on me but it is something I read online.
Also, Swanny, yes Hart was the GM at the time the trade was made, but since Hart knew he was stepping down at the time, a trade that would take away talent in the minors for some other talent, Hart gave Shapiro the FINAL say. That is why I consider it a Shapiro deal.
The Jacob Cruz deal was a Hart deal because Cruz was outta options and we needed to find someone to take him. SO it wasn't like Hart was going to be doing anything that would affect the future of the team in any dramatic way. IF Bradley had been brought in to immediately help the Tribe during the 2001 season I would be more hesistant to say it was a Shapiro trade, but the fact that he was brought in to help the POST-Hart era, and using a player that was supposed to come up POST-Hart, I believe that Hart let Shapiro have the final call on the deal. We got kind of lucky we got what we did for Cruz because we would have taken anything for him so we wouldn't have had to release him. Kind of like if any one of the players we got from the Dodgers for ROberts ever pans out.

[Hawaii007]

I hope people realize that since Hart said during ST of 2001 that he was stepping down after the season and everyone knew that Shapiro was taking his spot after, and everyone knew that Hart was going to take the next big GM gig that came along, the organization and Hart realized that Shapiro needed to have final say on the decisions that affected the team after Hart left.

Something like a trade designed to help the Tribe win in 2001 is logically connected as a Hart trade because for him, his reputation was still based on the Tribe performance that year. After that, what would he care about the state of the farm system etc after he leaves. Ot how the team performs after he is out of being a GM and a GM of another team. If the Tribe does well in 2002 and somehow wins a WS, Hart doesn't get SQUAT from that, no ring, no recognition. That is why the Bradley trade was a Shapiro trade. Allowing it to be a Hart trade makes no sense because, why would Hart care about the Tribe's CF situation for 2002?

[*TR]

Nice spin 007. Shapiro would be proud. You have some good logic. What you don't have are facts. You and others have just been reading each others posts on Fanhome so long you start to believe opinions are facts.

I'm sure Shapiro had tremendous say in the Bradley/Day deal. But he didn't instigate it and he could not consumate it. Hart did both of the above.

This whole idea of Shapiro making the Bradley trade is a phenomena totally unique to the Cleveland area. National scribes all correctly refer to the Alomar trade as Shapiro's first deal.
And that is the fact.

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by viper123:
Shapiro .... He got good players for Alomar but the fact is he probably could have got more. He didn't do a good job of shopping him around. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct.
The rookie GM was a litttle too hasty and didn't explore all his options. Especially playing the Yankees off the Mets. Soriano? Maybe.

Here's a quote from Bob Klapisch's column on ESPN.com, June 3, regarding Alomar;

"the deal that brought Alomar to the Mets last December was universally regarded as a coup -- practically a street-robbery of the Indians, whose GM, Mark Shapiro, was theoretically fleeced by Steve Phillips. The trade went as far as to anger George Steinbrenner, who demanded to know from his lieutenants how the Mets, and not the Yankees, were able to land such a coveted second baseman."

Would George have offered up Soriano? Some think he would of. It is obvious George was unaware that the Alomar deal was going down (as were most GM's). It is also clear we didn't give the Yankees a chance to get back in the picture. Who knows what the Yanks 'best' offer might have been? It certainly would not have hurt to have found out.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 04, 2002 03:49 AM: Message edited by: *TR ]</font>

[srg]

Tr, Ingraham-Pluto-Hoynes ALL said the Bradley deal was Shapiros first deal even though Hart was still GM. The national media doesn't know what goes on in Cleveland nor are they privy to inside information as the local media is.

As for Soriano for Alomar that was never an option. Why the **** would the Yankees trade a 23 year old young star for one headed for the twilight years of his career?

[Swanny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hawaii007:
I don't have the link on me but it is something I read online.
Also, Swanny, yes Hart was the GM at the time the trade was made, but since Hart knew he was stepping down at the time, a trade that would take away talent in the minors for some other talent, Hart gave Shapiro the FINAL say. That is why I consider it a Shapiro deal.
The Jacob Cruz deal was a Hart deal because Cruz was outta options and we needed to find someone to take him. SO it wasn't like Hart was going to be doing anything that would affect the future of the team in any dramatic way. IF Bradley had been brought in to immediately help the Tribe during the 2001 season I would be more hesistant to say it was a Shapiro trade, but the fact that he was brought in to help the POST-Hart era, and using a player that was supposed to come up POST-Hart, I believe that Hart let Shapiro have the final call on the deal. We got kind of lucky we got what we did for Cruz because we would have taken anything for him so we wouldn't have had to release him. Kind of like if any one of the players we got from the Dodgers for ROberts ever pans out.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just so you know. it wasn't you I was callimg a dumbf**k! I have edited my above post.

[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shapiro does keep making these minor league acquistions Josh Bard, Macgruder, that are in fact helping us.
[/QB]</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Josh Bard is not a Shapiro acquisition
(though it wouldn't surprise me if some try to claim it for him!}.

Josh Bard and Jody Gerut were acquired by John Hart from Colorado for Jacob Cruz on June 2, 2001.

Please don't tell me this is amother Shapiro deal! Sheesh.